Curse

Regulus X · Jul 04, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

I think Anet should just nerf Qqing of the skill(less) lamers that try to nerf somthing that isn't OP'd to begin with. Let me re-iterate: *coughs twice* Blind, Cripple, Weakness, Empathy, Faintheartedness, Insidious Parasite, Hex Snares, Ineptitude/Clumsiness, Any Assassin with high damage bonus skills (i.e.: death blossom, BoS, etc.), need I continue?

So stop Qqing and quit failing to bring your Rock versus their Scissors. Don't BE a rock, USE a rock!

Reverend Dr · Jul 04, 2009, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

So stop Qqing and quit failing to bring your Rock versus their Scissors. Don't BE a rock, USE a rock!

Do we really have to go over why rock/paper/scissors is a very bad way for a game to be balanced? I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before.

pinguinius · Jul 04, 2009, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Do we really have to go over why rock/paper/scissors is a very bad way for a game to be balanced? I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before.

Most MMO and RTS games are balanced by rock, paper, scissors. It's a perfectly fine vision of game balance, though not the one that serves to minimize whining best.

On topic, hit the tab key and throw a heal on whatever the defy pain warrior is futilely whacking at.

EinherjarMx · Jul 04, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Dreadlock

doesn't change the fact they bring it...and it takes forever to shutdown, if at all possible.

lol, if you're an ele, go dual attunement and blind + cracked armor + weakness his ass, and there goes their *gasp* efectivity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Wait, so the problem with Defy Pain is that people are too stupid to switch targets? And you want to fix that by nerfing Defy Pain instead of fixing the actual problem (learn2play)?

In what universe is balancing a game around your worst players a good idea?

this

seriously, asking for a nerf when you're obviously too stupid to change target is lame

Reverend Dr · Jul 04, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinguinius

Most MMO and RTS games are balanced by rock, paper, scissors. It's a perfectly fine vision of game balance, though not the one that serves to minimize whining best.

They are rock/paper/scissored by things that can be changed during play. I.E this buildable unit counters another unit. Things that cannot be changed after play has begun (such as team builds in the case of GW) are terrible to have balanced around rock/paper/scissors. You do not want the game to be over the moment it starts, that makes for a terribly poor balanced competitive game.

Torpoon · Jul 04, 2009, 07:29 AM // 07:29

No, does NOT need to be nerfed because:

: GW is about freedom, let someone tank if they want
: Removes and elite such as eviscerate, battle rage, primal rage etc.
: Many counters already such as degeneration, hexes etc.
: Sure it takes longer to kill them, but maybe its a skill to be used for a strategic purpose? Basic PvP is to avoid focusing on the tanks and go for the casters so it shouldn't even be that big of a problem

Anyways please do not nerf because it is one of my favorite skills due to it just being an all around fun skill and I believe it is 'needed' so warriors can fit the role of tank, if they wish.

Hugh Manatee · Jul 04, 2009, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Lord of Milk

That's where you're wrong. "Defy Pain" Warriors CAN'T do things. They are quite frankly useless. They're not as important as other players, they're just like 55 monks in RA. That's how much damage they do.

The reason Defy Pain is not as strong as you make it sound is because every warrior has basic needs (below), which Defy Pain messes up.

1. Run skill/snare/KD
2. Healing
3. Resurrection Signet
4. Damage

Along with Defy Pain, the first three things are going to take up at least 4 slots. So now you're left with (at most) 4 slots to make a build that can do at least half-assed damage with 4 regular warrior attack skills, and that's just not going to happen.

A: the only place defy pain works in PvP is places where res happens automatically(AB, FA, JQ) and you have little or no suport. If you need a res, that means you have other allies near you, meaning you don't need your own healing, meaning tankingis stupid and you should focus on whupass, meaning if everybody but you dies you still lose the match.

B: [Defy Pain][Dismember][Body Blow][Agonizing Chop][Bulls Strike][Frenzy][Rush][Lions Comfort]

^decent bar in AB, FA and JQ with everything specified. If you're feeling gutsy take out agonize or BB for a shadow step or shock or Cyclone axe in JQ. Not epic DPS like WE or super spike like standard shock axes, but effective at assaulting cap points or hunting monks that like to sit in the NPCs with heal area. Then there's those annoying jerks with he spears, but you can just run from them if you're good at dodging projectiles. Basically defy just makes you invincible VS NPCs, kinda like touchers but slightly more effective VS players.

C: The only really broken thing about Defy Pain is in FA where a tank can sit in front of a turtle and stall it by itself, but that's not the skill's problem, that's an AI glitch. I've killed Defy warriors with a hammer warrior. I had help, but they can't get juiced if their on their ass for like 6 seconds, and if you pin them when they aren't charged they "death spike" themselves when their defy runs out.

Aeon221 · Jul 04, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Yeah, I had the same thought re: defy pain and axe bars.

Elites on axe bars are pretty interchangeable, so you could just toss in Defy Pain and have a bar. It would not be a maxed bar, but it wouldn't be terrible.

And, hey, it's worth it so's you can GO BALLS DEEP.

Longasc · Jul 04, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Reverend Dr. got it right.

Still, there is no problem with Defy Pain as is that is not harmful in any way. Its only redeeming quality is tanking turtles in Aspenwood and soaking up the attacks of stupid players. They still die to degen and more than 1 player.

I have not seen them used for tanking in PvE yet, if the "tanking" strategy is applied at all, even better and more specialized tank builds are usually used.

This skill hurts nobody, but as a very specialized skill it has the potential to cause harm in conjunction with future skill changes.

I would still leave it as it is. I rarely use this skill, but the few times I still play my warrior I like to use it in Fort Aspenwood just for laughs - there are people that really waste precious time on killing defy pain warriors!

sweet555 · Jul 04, 2009, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Defy Pain is just a sad excuse for an elite skill in PvP. The pvp game is way too fast paced to have a defy pain warrior. You might not succeed in killing the warrior, but if you can wipe the rest of the team, it really wouldnt matter. The defy pain warrior cannot pump as much damage as the Eviscerate warriors or the Whirling Axe warriors, and part of having a good defense is making sure your monks have enough energy, and to ensure that, you have to kill certain offensive targets such as eles to make sure monks do not have to use the energy to heal constantly. With a defy pain warrior, you simply cannot pump enough damage. Sure you can frenzy all you want, but you can do that on anyother warrior anyways if you arent bad. So I personally do not care about defy pain in pvp, since if you are dumb enough to run it, then im smart enough to not be attacking warriors (your not suppose to do that much anyways).

In PvE? good skill for tanking i guess?

Tyla · Jul 04, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

In my opinion, just nerf it for PvP.

Take RA for an example. Sure, it's a place for using stupid builds, but people sometimes go there just to burn a few minutes when they might not have much time. The skill is nothing but an annoyance, you can swap targets, but get this: In gametypes that aren't based on points, you're going to have to kill them somehow, and the huge defense gained from the skill just prolongs games pointlessly. You can interrupt Healing Signet, and they can cancel it freely without any loss too.

Regulus X · Jul 04, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Wait, so the problem with Defy Pain is that people are too stupid to switch targets? And you want to fix that by nerfing Defy Pain instead of fixing the actual problem (learn2play)?

In what universe is balancing a game around your worst players a good idea?

That's what ALL SKILL BALANCES consist of.

"Onoes! Mending is just tooooo strooooong!"

-July 4th Skill Balance Update-

Warrior/Monks
* Mending: Decreased pips of regen to 0...1, increased enargy cost to 25 and recharge to 90 seconds and costs 2 pips of enargy to maintain. If/when stripped, the Wammo blows up.

Y' dig?

Azadaleou · Jul 04, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

A lot of people don't know how to switch targets when they're c-spaced onto a defy warrior. Plus, running from a 1v1 is dishonorable, so you are required to fight a defy warrior to the death.

LOL

Honestly people, I don't see the problem with Defy Pain. Just ignore them. If they are using Defy Pain it means they have sacrificed a good dps elite for a pve tanking skill.

bena · Jul 04, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Skills that are either going to be useless or highly exploitable have no place in competitive format

i believe one of the devs mentioned regretting having too many skills in guild wars. the implication being there will be fewer but well used/balanced skills in gw2.

defy pain is a free win in RA, just be patient. spend your time trolling the defy pain user if you want.

ignore in ab

ignore in jq, or cap a shrine or lead the war into the shrine.... the npcs will kill the nub lol.

Azadaleou · Jul 04, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bena

i believe one of the devs mentioned regretting having too many skills in guild wars. the implication being there will be fewer but well used/balanced skills in gw2.

defy pain is a free win in RA, just be patient. spend your time trolling the defy pain user if you want.

ignore in ab

ignore in jq, or cap a shrine or lead the war into the shrine.... the npcs will kill the nub lol.

I would be sort of disappointed to not see a lot of skills in GW2. What makes GW1 unique is the fact that there is so many skills to choose from, like a card deck. While its true that its probably hard to balance, its just a negative side to its pvp system. Every mmo has some sort of negative, whether it be a notorious grinding fest or overpowered classes.

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 04, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

People don't like a skill because they don't know how to get around it, so they cry for a nerf. Warriors are high hp, high armor, hard to kill characters who get in close and do a good amount of damage against low armor opponents.

Learn to switch targets. Learn to run away. Defy Pain is fine as it is. Just because its a useful skill doesn't mean it should be rendered less useful.

I'm gonna make sure to run defy pain with my knockdown build now when I pvp, just for you people.

/notsigned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou

I would be sort of disappointed to not see a lot of skills in GW2. What makes GW1 unique is the fact that there is so many skills to choose from, like a card deck. While its true that its probably hard to balance, its just a negative side to its pvp system. Every mmo has some sort of negative, whether it be a notorious grinding fest or overpowered classes.

What makes guildwars unique is it has more useless skills than any other mmo. Seriously, just going off the monk, how many condition removal skills can you fit on a bar? How many different heal spells do you need on a bar? Most of them suck. Elementalists have too many damage spells that are never used by anyone other than those players who don't know better. How many earth armor bonus spells do you need on a bar?

Either remove all the useless skills, or allow two elites on a bar. One for each profession and then maybe most of the skills would be useful. Even then we would still end up with over 100 skills that no one uses.

When you make a card deck, lets say magic the gathering. You don't build a 60 card deck with 20 useful cards and 20 pointless cards because they get in the way and it takes you longer to draw what you need to win. You make a 40 card meta deck in which every card you pull is going to hurt your opponent big time and help you out a lot. I used to win dozens of games in a row because too many people don't know the first thing about deck building.

If characters were decks and you cluttered your bar up with "filler" skills, you would lose everytime because I'm going to only use what I need. I don't care what the skills called, what the art looks like or how popular it is. If its the best choice, it goes on the bar. If not, then I'v already forgotten about it and moved on to something useful. Your channel fireball combo got denied by my counter spell and now you have 1 life left. GG.

My 1/1 goblin speed deck will beat your 5/5 dragon deck any day.

Arkantos · Jul 04, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

In my opinion, just nerf it for PvP.

Take RA for an example. Sure, it's a place for using stupid builds, but people sometimes go there just to burn a few minutes when they might not have much time. The skill is nothing but an annoyance, you can swap targets, but get this: In gametypes that aren't based on points, you're going to have to kill them somehow, and the huge defense gained from the skill just prolongs games pointlessly. You can interrupt Healing Signet, and they can cancel it freely without any loss too.

If your team has a snare, the warrior isn't going to get adrenaline, therefore he's not going to use defy pain. If not, then you might as well nerf IMS's too, because there's nothing more annoying than runners at the end of a match. The huge defense gained from the ability to flee from your party just prolongs games pointlessly. But that logic isn't great, which is why neither are getting nerfed.

Tyla · Jul 04, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

If your team has a snare, the warrior isn't going to get adrenaline, therefore he's not going to use defy pain. If not, then you might as well nerf IMS's too, because there's nothing more annoying than runners at the end of a match. The huge defense gained from the ability to flee from your party just prolongs games pointlessly. But that logic isn't great, which is why neither are getting nerfed.

The primary difference is that IMS skills can be used as an active defense mid-game anyway and can be used to push out more damage. There is also bodyblocking and pushing your enemy into a corner. But I guess in a way you're right, because people suck. One man's fun is another man's misery.

Ghost Dog · Jul 04, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweet555

In PvE? good skill for tanking i guess?

It's great for farming...but I don't use it otherwise.

Azadaleou · Jul 04, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

People don't like a skill because they don't know how to get around it, so they cry for a nerf. Warriors are high hp, high armor, hard to kill characters who get in close and do a good amount of damage against low armor opponents.

Learn to switch targets. Learn to run away. Defy Pain is fine as it is. Just because its a useful skill doesn't mean it should be rendered less useful.

I'm gonna make sure to run defy pain with my knockdown build now when I pvp, just for you people.

/notsigned.

What makes guildwars unique is it has more useless skills than any other mmo. Seriously, just going off the monk, how many condition removal skills can you fit on a bar? How many different heal spells do you need on a bar? Most of them suck. Elementalists have too many damage spells that are never used by anyone other than those players who don't know better. How many earth armor bonus spells do you need on a bar?

Either remove all the useless skills, or allow two elites on a bar. One for each profession and then maybe most of the skills would be useful. Even then we would still end up with over 100 skills that no one uses.

When you make a card deck, lets say magic the gathering. You don't build a 60 card deck with 20 useful cards and 20 pointless cards because they get in the way and it takes you longer to draw what you need to win. You make a 40 card meta deck in which every card you pull is going to hurt your opponent big time and help you out a lot. I used to win dozens of games in a row because too many people don't know the first thing about deck building.

If characters were decks and you cluttered your bar up with "filler" skills, you would lose everytime because I'm going to only use what I need. I don't care what the skills called, what the art looks like or how popular it is. If its the best choice, it goes on the bar. If not, then I'v already forgotten about it and moved on to something useful. Your channel fireball combo got denied by my counter spell and now you have 1 life left. GG.

My 1/1 goblin speed deck will beat your 5/5 dragon deck any day.

Who said the point was to fill up your bar with skills that have no synergy with one another? Any skill in this game can be that way if you don't understand the details of the skill system. My point of mentioning how all the skills make the game unique is that you are free to create a build that works extremely well. Its all about trying to come up with skills that are in perfect synergy. Its impossible to say what skills are useful and useless because I doubt that every possible synergy has or ever will be discovered.

For 'me", trying to create that perfect synergy of 8 out of so many skills is WHAT makes the game. If I wanted a limited amount of skills that didn't leave room for this then I would go play WoW and be happy with the talent trees. If someone is dumb enough to put 8 different types of condition removals on their bar then that is their problem. Don't blame it on the system for allowing such thing, blame it on the player. When I create a build it often feels like playing the lotto. All the numbers have the potential to be a winner, its just the combination and order of them that makes that potential into a reality.